Author Topic: gulpin fish help  (Read 737 times)

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Offline Hajra

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gulpin fish help
« on: November 21, 2009, 06:49:22 PM »
my fish are gulping. its not dissolved oxygen and i just done a ten gallon water change. ph is 7.4 but i buffered it so is should be up by now. ammona is .25  Nitrates were 20 no2 was .25 i am about to test it again. but i know it has changed. what would cause him to keep gulping
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 07:32:08 PM by Hajra »
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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 07:09:25 PM »
ok. well i just tested the water and the PH is 8.4 the NO went up to 40 the NO2 is back deown to 0 abd the ammonia is down to 0. i just done a water change and the LFS is closed. what can i do to lower the NO3
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2009, 07:18:09 PM »
nitrates arent that bad... at least they wont kill your fish at that level..

but there is no reason why nitrites would move... they dont go up and down.. they are only there when the tank is cycling.. period..

and the level you detected was more then a 'mini' cycle... which is basiclaly moving a rock or two around.

you will always have problems with nitrates with your castles... each time ou clean the castle it will pump nitrate into the water column

so, unless you wipe and syphon at the same time.. Im not sure this iwll work out long term... im not sure how often you clean the castles, but that is time is compounded by the algae and and crap you area putting into the water column.. btw, the couple guys i knw that have castles or rather other building s and stuff, one has gotten out of the hobby the other recently took his structures out...



anyways, let me know a bit more about your filter setup...  cause that can cause problems too.. the stuff you get from the lfs is not the best way to run things for a salt water tank.. but, again, i dont want to talk generally in this thread.. just let me know the filter you got goin on...

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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2009, 02:10:09 PM »
done the water change and fish still gulping. seems there is no effect on the inverts. using a ph buffer to try and raise the ph of the tank but right now it is sittin at 7.8. help if you can trying to keep everyone updated.
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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2009, 02:58:55 PM »
one filter is an aqueon not sure about anything else about it. the second is a skilter 250 and a power head.
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2009, 04:28:05 PM »
your pH dropped from the 8.4 last night back to 7.8 today???  What time today did you check???

hows a bout re-test of your ammonia and nitrite???

im wondering if your fish has burned / irritated gills and is not getting o2 like he should???

(from the ammonia)


were you going to transfer him to the small tank you said you setup???

i would scrub the hell out of those filters...

when was the last time you rplaced the foam pads, and do you still have the bio beads/ bio balls in there??  If so, you got to take them out.  (over a period of time...like take out half today, and then in two to three days take out the other half)

and you need to replace the foam pads monthly, and clean them weekly... but not weakly...


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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2009, 09:16:42 PM »
its the skilter and the other filter. i change one of then about every two to three weeks. and clean them everyother month when they start to build up. i mean everything has been workin for 7 months why the sudden change
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2009, 11:35:22 PM »
filters, the foam ones, build up detritus and nitrates... they hold them in place...

until thrown away.. the same with the bio balls/beads whatever you have in there...   it is sold all around but it is not suggested by long term aquarist... for good reasons...

basically the better solutions will be to evolve into a sump type of filter... it will give yo umuch more flexibility and ease of maintenance...

its all good though... i started with a cannister filter like many many others...

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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2009, 11:48:38 PM »
both of my filters use pads. and i change them roughly every month. but never both at the same time for that would remove nitrifing bacteria. but both are hang on back filters. i just changed one. and in two weeks i am supposed to change it again. should i change it now or no
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2009, 03:58:19 AM »
the nitrifying issue is not true...

you can throw those filter pads away and never use them...

they are NOT the FILTER that matters... all they do is trap/filter out the chunks... and even though they filter out the chunks, they actually just store the chunks and keep them in the water.. even after rinsing the pads.. the majority of nitrates are still in the sponge...

If you use the foam pads 24/7, i strongly urge you to clean them weekly.. and then toss them once a month and get new ones... 

I suggest not using the pads for a while..  maybe just on special occasions, like when you have company over, or for picture taking time, if it makes you feel better...

and btw: the 'nitrifying' bacteria, is actually biological organisms, and htey are mostly in the live rock and live sand... and on the glass and piping and tubing and pretty much most everything submerged...

and in your tank you have a lot of surface area but not enough exorbic area... (internal area)   your castle only promotes growth onthe outside, and that is covered in surface algae


 
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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2009, 02:22:01 PM »
and in your tank you have a lot of surface area but not enough exorbic area... (internal area)   your castle only promotes growth onthe outside, and that is covered in surface algae

explain a lil please
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Offline KYLE.801

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2009, 04:28:05 PM »
Dont be afraid to throw those filter pads away, I had a hob filter on my 30 gal and I ended up throwing the pads away and just ran carbon every once in awhile and my tank was doing just fine. 

The bacteria needs a place to grow and surfaces usually arent enough room for the bacteria to grow.  Bill said they mostly live in the live rock and live sand so if you dont have much sand or live rock then you wont have as much space for the bacteria to grow in.  You also dont want to have too much live rock or live sand either.  On my 29 I think I had about 30 lbs of live sand and 25 lbs of live rock so because I had enough places for the bacteria to grow it was not necessary to keep filter pads in my hob filter.
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2009, 05:48:58 PM »
live rock is pourus.. it is like sponge.. it has lots of surface area on the inside that is nto exposed to light or current or flow and the dposit of detritus to cover it up and choke out the oxygen..

the ceramic / porcelin castle is hard, brittle... the only plce for stuff to attach is on the outside of the castle and on the inside surface of the castle but not on the indise of the inside of the clay or slip or whatever it is called...

you can soak the porcelin in water and it wont gain weight, but i fyou soak live rock in water it will increas weight from it absorbing hte water to the pockets in teh walls of the rock...

it is like carbon... carbon has basillions of pockets of air... creating massive amounts of surface area...

a small pellet of carbon has as much surface area as a football field for jucnk and comtanimante to stick to...

Not sure this helps, if not, we will have to get greg or lanny involved...

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Offline RandyFolds

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 06:53:31 PM »
Alright, so your fish are eating all that food, and their main excretory product is Ammonia (NH3). So it turns out NH3 is super toxic to most aquatic life. Luckily, we have bacteria. The bacteria that colonize our tanks and "filter" the water consist mainly of three types.

There are bacteria that generate energy through the conversion of ammonia (NH3) to Nitrite (NO2), much in the way we process glucose to water and carbon dioxide...electron transport chain and whatnot.

Another type of bacteria converts NO2 to nitrate (NO3) for energy. From there, either animals, plants, bacteria (the third type), coral or algae use nitrate for their biological process.

On to the next point...The bacteria stratify. Converting ammonia to nitrite requires oxygen. Converting nitrite to nitrate must be done under anoxic conditions. Not only do you need to have enough surface area for these bacteria to colonize, but it must be under the right conditions. Your sand bed maintains an oxygen rich area near the surface where there is good gas exchange due to current. Below that is an anoxic layer sealed off by the top layer. In rocks, the same thing is true only the anoxic areas are the holes within the porous rock, and the oxygen rich layer is exposed to the surface. All these metabolic products leech back into the water because everything moves down a concentration gradient.

I think what bill is saying is that most of your tank fosters the oxygen loving bacteria, including your filter sponges (nowhere on them is anoxic). The castles aren't porous, so again, they only serve to harbor oxygen-loving bacteria. His concern is that there is inadequate space for these organisms to colonize.
There is something fishy going on here...

Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2009, 09:42:15 PM »
the castle has been in there for seven months. Why would it be a problem now? there is 15 poinds of live rock and i use the filters and i do change them monthly, five or take a day or two. It seems all this started when i seen a spiderweb substance in the tank that i believe to be from the wrasse that died. since i fished him out i have had nothing but problems. I thank you all for your advice and i do listen to all of it and then figure out what i am gonna try and do. I dont want to lose my fish. they are like my babies. lol. so to say. how would i help my fish if they have the burned gills like you say they may have Bill?
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