Author Topic: gulpin fish help  (Read 738 times)

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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 10:41:00 PM »
seven months is no time at all...

you can hold your breathe for almost a minute and survive in a clorine cloud, doesnt mean it will last and work out for you in the long term

toxin and things like that take time to develope and grow into concentration that is harmful and before then there will be symptoms, you maybe seeing symptoms


not sure if i can present a good analogy..


If i pee in a pool, it is a week concentration of ammonia... if there are things in the pool that convert that pee into something less harmful, but there isnt alot of it, it will only process maybe 75% of the pee, leaving 25% to grow and become fmore concentrate over time...

repeat, and repeat and repeat, and eventually that pool will not be so nice... even though lots of people swam in it all summer long, by the end of summer that pool is rank


the goal of our aquarium is to try to mimic nature, and create the mechanisms to make that balance last a s long as possible..

think of it as a game of SIMs... you build your city and it grows and it peters out and you only made so much money/success..

if you build the city again and do it differently, you might get more succcess and more money...

Im thinking the castles and the methodology you are approaching with is a good effort, bt ultimately is too far from natural, not just in looks but in chemical mechanics

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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2009, 10:57:12 PM »
i just tested the water. i swear i just posted this... the ph is 7.8 or .9 i cant tell which the ammonia is 0 and the NO2 is 0 the NO3 is 80.
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Offline RandyFolds

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 11:32:09 PM »
Yeah, you gotta do some water changes, ditch those filter pads, and consider getting a refugium. 80 ppm is really high, especially for such a young tank. Most people say 40 ppm is the most you should ever allow, and a lot of people try and run at like 10ppm. Again, more available area for bacterial colonization would help this.

Is there any chance you got something into the water? Soap, bleach, ammoniated window cleaner (windex), paint fumes, perfumes, something like that can cause your fish to end up gasping. Clove oil is an oxygen uptake inhibitor that elicits those symptoms in fish. Maybe some other household stuff is as well.
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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2009, 12:16:05 PM »
there is no way anything got into the water. and i need to know how to feed them since their actin funny. i have only seen one at a time and i dont know if i have seen just the one or both of then but i do know that they have to be hungry. i havent fed them in about 4 days since they been gulping and i dont want the to starve
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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2009, 12:49:08 PM »
 half of castle removed. ok. problem. the only things that i need to change with the water is the slainity and the ph. everyone here said to stop using the buffer so i did. My LFS said to use it to bring up the PH. should i or no and why. please i am getting totally  different answers from everyone. please tell me what you think is best.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 12:56:32 PM by Hajra »
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2009, 01:21:11 PM »
i never said to NOT use it.. i said to use less...

if you use it, use less then what they suggest, come back in an hour, and test again, then add some more.. SLOWLY

fish, corals, invervts, CUC and everything, HATE CHANGES...

gotta make these changes slowly..

ask your lfs if they have a fish and it is used to a pH of 7.7 should they dump him into a tank that is pH of 8.4??

If your pH was 8.4 in a half hour of using it.. then you used WAY too much and too fast... the buffer limited the affect to 8.4 so in essence you wasted product... and could have used less and achieved the same affect


it's your money, but i choose to be frugal and only use JUST what  i need and not a bit more if i can help it...

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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2009, 02:50:35 PM »
ok i get it thanks. it says a teaspoon to 20 gal so what u suggest
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2009, 03:32:35 PM »
is that a powder or a liquid???

If it is a powder, i would dilute it with ro/di water per the directions, and then only add 1/2 of the solution, OVER time... a quarter cup here and a quarter cup there... and no, you dont have to measure... just add the quarter cup about every 5 ten minutes



1/4cp = a bloop

(sorry Bloop)

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Offline RandyFolds

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2009, 04:15:47 PM »
When it comes right down to it, your alkalinity is a measure of unused buffering capacity. If you keep adding buffer after your pH hits the buffers capacity, than you are just adding alkalinity, carbonate hardness, whatever you want to call it (to a certain point...you can overbuffer, but it takes alot). It is pretty much harmless, but wasteful. I know people who claim they keep their alkalinity at like 25dKh, which is just moronic. It is like when I see people saying they have 550ppm of Calcium and I try and tell them, "no, you have an expired test kit for calcium".

Having this excess in the water means that when conditions change, such as at night, the tank just absorbs the swing and the parameter doesn't change.

When the lights go out, your plants and corals stop consuming C02 and producing 02, and start consuming O2 and generating CO2, much like our respiration. The effect of this is that the concentration of CO2 in the water increases. It interacts with water, and this causes more carbonic acid (H2CO3) to form, acidifying the water and thereby dropping the pH (this is also what frees up calcium in your tank by dissolving rocks and sand, which is why your pH will never get below 7.8 IME).

This excess buffer leaves a bunch of carbonates and maybe sulphates and whatnot in the water, and rather than floating around mucking everything up, those carbonates join up with the free acid molecules, neutralizing it and forming the likes of HCO3-, CO3 and other harmless molecules. There is a whole big chemical equation that balances out and is pretty cool, but I haven't been in school for too long, and you can easily look it up by googling "carbonate cycle" if you are into it.

I have never had anything die because of a pH issue, but I am always careful since it usually isn't my tank that I am working on. I would stick with bergy's "dissolve in ro/di or even tank water, and then add over the course of a day or two." When you do manage to fix it, you will find it requires much less tinkering than getting it right the first time, which can seem like it takes forever.
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Offline RandyFolds

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2009, 04:34:05 PM »
I haven't fed either of my tanks in weeks...4 days is nothing to worry about. Your fish are definitely in poor health though, and eating HEALTHY foods is only going to help. If I were in your shoes, I would get some Selcon or some other vitamin supplement and soak a bit of food in that and try and encourage your fish to eat. Don't feed any more than they eat quickly, because fouling up your tank is not the thing to do right now.

And remember, variety is the spice of life, literally. Your fish will die without it. If you have just been feeding a single food, keep in mind that you need to rotate/supplement it often. I like to throw in some mix of green, red and/or brown algaes, gut loaded blood worms, Spirulina gut loaded brine shrimp, market shrimp, market squid, the occasionally handful of freshwater mollies with their stomachs filled to near bursting with spirulina flakes.

Everyone has their recipe, and usually, the more experience they have, the more intensive it is. I just rotate between a few of the foods each feeding. Bill makes his own fish food blending everything and freezing it into cubes. I bet greg has a bunch of tanks that are just growing food for his other fish.

Not trying to terrify you, just throwing it out there.

And on the topic of food, Bill, what do you think the best way is to go about getting more of that Fuzzy-Phytes stuff from Reef Nutrition? It is too expensive and has too short of a shelflife for me to order quantity from my wholesalers. Did anyone else check it out?
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2009, 10:41:59 PM »
it is kind of expensive and sold in tiny bottles. the batch i got was left over from the trade show.. if yo ugo to the next one, come with a five gallon jug and ask the guy there.. his name is gresham...

they just toss it or give it away anyways..

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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2009, 12:24:26 PM »
it is about 2 now and the ph was 7.8 The No3 is staying at 80. i been using the buffer and trying to lower salinity to 1.023. last night my yellow tail was solid white and swimming up about half way and down all around the tank. He has slowed a lil more in gulping but he still wont take any food that i offer him. There is supposed to be two damsels in there yet i only see one. the other might be in the castle but some thing tells me that he is either hiding or has been eaten. Half of the castle was taken out and i plan on removing a filter pad when get up the day after thanksgiving. food. i feed frozen brine shrimp live and since they are omnivores i also drop in Algea wafers. though not all at once. lol So everyone agree. just keep doing water changes and buffering my ph???
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 12:28:33 PM by Hajra »
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2009, 01:01:28 PM »
yup, agreed...  stay on the course.. right or wrong, you gotta explore this option and or prove it right or wrong...

too manychanges and or different strategies will skew the outcome and deductions...

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Offline Hajra

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2009, 07:10:20 PM »
got good news and bad news both. The good news is when i offered food to the damsel he ate. but the bad news is that i am down to one fish. i have yet to see the other so i assume that he is either dead or eaten by the crabs and hermits. Ph is still low at 8.0 but the damsel is acutally out and swimming some. he is starting to return to normal. yay. thank you all for all your help. sorry if this dont sound like i am happy i am cause things are starting to return to normal but at the same time recently i have lost two fish and i dont like it. it makes me sad :( :( :(
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Offline Bergy

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Re: gulpin fish help
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2009, 01:04:32 AM »
pH of 8 is perfect...

remember that pH goes up and down depending ontime of day, and or time of light cycle...

when tracking pH issues it is best to log the time of day of the test, and or better yet, just test at the same time of day... so, 6pm do your ph test


and dont give up hope on missing fish.. i found a fish after two years...

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