Begginer marine tank set up

[Hajra]

O it is a lot to take in all at once. just take it a step at a time and go from there. you know what you want your tank to be like in the long run so just keep that in mind and go from there. i would start with shallow sand cause you can always add more and live rock is always helpful. it helps filter water. just trying to clear a thing or two up for ya. and take it easy and get used to over load. its gonna be like that for the first few months of setup. `

[Just_Greg]

Bill makes excellent points, altho since you're leaning towards a FOWLR setup and are going to run a canister filter (kudos for oversizing it!), i'm not so sure an aquarium controller is the way to go.  with the exception of a couple of things like temp and pH, pretty much, all it will be doing is switching your lighting on and off, which can be done with a couple of timers (you can get the digital models for like 12.95 from HD).  now if you "upgrade" to a sump-based system later on, and plan to keep coral, then i'd say go for it.

having 13 FOWLR setups up and running, here are my suggestions:

UV UNITS:

they really only work for waterborne pathogens, and most of what makes fish sick is mostly benthic (surface-dwelling), and, as such will be affected very little, if at all (i have two UV units in my fish supply cabinet taking up space ATM), so save your money there.  one thing to remember, is there will always be pathogens in your system, it's when a fish is stressed or in poor physical shape that gives them the foothold they need to make the fish sick.

LR/LS:

YES, YES, YES!  LR is a huge part of your biofiltration “system”, so I’d run with about 50-60 lbs (roughly) of nice, light stuff.
As for substrate, I don’t like the look a BB tanx, and I run about 1.5” – 2” of dry #3 aragonite sand.  This will also help any bottom-dwelling specimens feel  more comfortable.  Once the sand is in, keep your fingers out of it (meaning don’t stir it).  Vacuum the surface only (you’ll get the hang of it).
I also run live macroalgae in most of my setups.  It looks nice, some fish eat it or hunt in it, and it aids in nutrient transport when you prune it.  It also competes with nuisance algae for nutrients.


HEATERS:

I don’t run any of my systems over 77*F, so most of them are chilled rather than heated, but I do run heaters on the tanx that have dual-stage controllers to keep them steady.  I like the Visi-Therm Stealth.  Don’t let folks say “but in the ocean the temps can be higher”…this is NOT the ocean, it’s a tiny box of water with a whole different set of dynamics and special issues.

Aqua-Equalizer:

SNAKE OIL!  as are most additives, unless you have a specific need.

Think on this info, and hit us back with any other questions.

[RandyFolds]

I have been slow to weigh in on this. I apologize, and welcome to the forum.

My first piece of advice is: GO SLOWLY. It is so tempting to go buy up everything you think you need and come home and have an awesome setup. Unfortunately, that isn't how it works out in practice, and you will have spent a bunch on useless crap.

Decide what tank you want, and if you are going for a sump (which you should...it opens up your options tremendously, and looks a lot nicer to boot). From there, all you need is a heater and a return pump and you have got yourself a fish tank. Throw in sand and live rock and you have a marine biotope. Throw on a light and you have got yourself a reef tank. It doesn't have to happen in one fell swoop. Take your time and get exactly what you want.

I run an aquarium service and have access to all my equipment at wholesale prices, but 98% of the equipment running in my house is off of craigslist. It is your best friend for aquarium equipment, and will literally save you thousands of dollars.

I have tanks lit by sunlight with nothing more than airstones for circulation and they have corals and organisms thriving in them. Obviously, that is about as janky as it gets, but it goes to show you that you don't need the whole package, especially right off the bat.

UV Sterilizer - as Greg said, waste of time and money. There are situations where they become useful,  but a newly setup home tank is not one of them.

Live rock - the more the merrier. This is the real filtration in your system. Everything else is just to keep the rockwork happy.

Sand - start with the amount you want...you can add it, but it is going to wreak havoc if you don't do it correctly. Removing a couple scoops is much less shocking and detrimental to the system that adding #20, and you can't have too much sand. On that same note, I highly highly recommend setting up a plenum under your sand bed.

Hang-On-Tank stuff - yeah, it works, but not very well. As I said above, there is no substitute for a sump and well designed equipment hidden away in it.

Everyone is bombarding you with info, hopefully we help ease your way into the hobby. Good luck, and never hesitate to ask.

[Bergy]

Greg, greg, greg...

I hate it when you contradict me... hehehehe


Actually i love it... i like hearing other points of view, but i am sure you are somewhat tired of all the info overload... so i wont go into any further but to say that an aquarium controller does so much more...

the basic units, starting around $100-180  will do what greg said,  timers... turn on things when you program them to and turn them off when you program them to...

BUT, they also do more... it adds a level of redundancy for temperatur control... if you have a regular heater, it will turn it on when you have programmed, so if the little knob on the heater goes off prematurely, it wont turn on until the contrller turns it on, so you have some back up from just the heater..

AND...

It also will turn on fans or chillers... so it is actually TWO temperature controllers and a bunch of timers...


AND...

If for some reason the temperature in your tank keeps going up. maybe cause it is really hot outside, or the lights are on...

IT will not only turn off the heater, but it will also start turning off the lights and other things you have programmed that would contribute to the heat issue...


And if you get a better model, it will notify you of problems... so you can either go home and fix it or have someone go there for you...


and it does more, but again, i dont want to belabor the discussion on this one subject...

suffice it to say, that 99.9% of reefkeepers end up getting one after they have spent almost a$100 on timers and controllers, then they plopp down another $100-200 for the real deal...


anyways, glad to hear lanny and greg chime in... heheheh


welcome to the foray...

[Just_Greg]

let's just say that the !@#$%^&*()!!!  RKE (that Renee HAD to have) left a BAD $800 taste in my mouth...she STILL hasn't sent it in!   ::)

then again, many of you geeked-out REEFERS do use them, and i can see why (assuming you get one that WORKS), altho you rarely hear FO peeps talking about them.

you know me, Bill...somebody has to open the discussion.

[Bergy]

omg...

the RKE from hell....


Im hoping renee gets some satisfaction there...  I really had high hopes that it would have been sent in and returned by now, and that you would have it for your new tank...

but yea, i can understand your lack of enthusiasm....

But, once you go there, you will wonder how and why you took so long to begin with...

btw:  just get a acjr   and you will be done...

Tom's has them on sale all the time...

I would suggest the rkl   but, i think programming it will be similar to the rke, and although a bazillion reefers got it down, I really dont have a clue... i guess once i can play with it, it will be different, but, the acjr comes pretty much already programmed... all you got to do is change the times/settings...

anyways, no problems... i understand

[music4everman]

Hey guys,
So far I've settled on the  Eheim pro 3e canister filter 2078(180 gal, GPH:88-242 w/4 media trays) recommended media 2 Liters of Ehfimech & 6 liters of Ehfisubstrat pro, so that's what I got. I also have the Eheim Wet/Dry filter 2229 (158gal, GPH 227w/3 media trays)and 7 liters of Ehfisubstrat pro included. The AquaticLife T5 HO Light fixture W/2 Lunar LEDs ( 2-24" 39W 420/460 lamps-2-24" 39W 700+lamps-2-1W Lunar LEDs. Two Eheim Jager 200W heaters (60-90 gal each). 80lbs of live sand (Aragonite). A hydrometer( I plan to get a refractometer when possible) and a API Saltwater master test kit.
I plan to order 90lbs of live rock soon. Does this seem like a good starting point for a 56gal marine tank? Does anyone think I should include anything that's absolutely necessary (as money is  running low for now). I think I'll be able to afford 1 fish by the time all is said and done. I just hope it'll be happy lol.

I'm still undecided about the controller at the moment. To be honest, they look complicated. Trust me when I say that I'm reading everyone input and trying to base my decisions on them. Thanks for all the responders trying to help me based on their own experiences . Its people like you who make it easier for people like me to be successful. Although I feel totally ignorant on this subject, I feel confident that with help from forums like this one and others like it, I stand a chance of eventually getting it right. Will let you know how things progress. FYI it's 15 degrees in my neck of the woods (NY) today, but it feels like 0. Bye 4 now

[Bergy]

hey music,

It looks like you are on the right path...

Im not sure how two filters will work with your tank... that is a lot of plumbing going on inside and behind the tank.  Im not sure you need both, but per the comments below, i am guessing it is better to go overboard with the cannisters...

Is this maybe something you can add later on, that is, start with one cannister, then after your tank starts growing and you start putting in more and more fish, you can add the filter later on???

Also, Im not sure about the 'substrate' media stuff you/they are talking about... typically reefers end up tossing the 'bio-balls'/ceramic beads stuff that comes with those cannisters...

They do help, but they pose a bigger problem later on, especialy as the fish count goes up...  They trap the poop and large particulate matter, and basically constantaly hold them under the water and perpetuate rinsing that junk back into the water...

You can rinse that stuff out, but again, it comes down to how much maintenance you want to do...

Typically i reccomend for folks to rinse the sponges in those filters every two weeks, and to throw them out every 2 months...  and to rinse those biobeads - substrate stuff every two months....

And to be quite honest with you and anybody really, if i had to do that much maintenance, i wouldnt keep a reef tank...

Sumps are god's gift to us reefers...  even with no baffles if you have to...  the ability to syphon out detritus from one main spot and get the majority of the SOURCE of nitrate and ammonia with one swift maintenace task makes reefing possible for me..

And if you really wanted a sponge, you could put a sponge on the inlet to the pump in the sump, or use a filter sock on the drain...

but, I am guessing that probably more then half on this forum alone are using cannisters or hang on tank filters... and i know that lfs sell 95% of thier systems are cannisters or hang on tank setups...

And i also know that the majority of reefkeepers do NOT come online and talk to snobs like me...  hehehe

So basically it comes down to doing what you are doing, and that is to get as much of a sample base to hopefully get numbers, statistics, specifications, and put your best foot foreward... and know that like mentioned below, there really is not wrong way to do it...

btw:  cant recall if i mentioned it in this thread or not, but i know someone in the industry, who has a tank, wel he has a bunch of tanks and stuff, but he has a species tank for display kinda,,, (hehehehe, yea, i know, i am draggin it out)  anyways, that tank has 5 year old regular flouresent bulbs, hang on tank filter, a heater... he doesnt do water changes just an occasional top off


That tnak has 3' wide frog spawn and a couple other smaller,  1-2'  leathers...

they dont have any color, but, they are huge and growing...

He has had this tank for over ten years if i recall

So, basically , figure out how much of an investment you are willing to make, and do the research as best as you can to minimize your risk... risk being that you might throw in the towel after some period of time... due to frustration of it not coming together like you expected... 

And good luck...

BTW  I was wondering where do you live and where are you getting your stuff from, and what other forums are you getting info and support from...

There are quite a few out there... I like www.wetwebmedia.com   and www.reef2reef.com

and a couple others...

www.drsfostersmith.com has excellent customer service and decent pricing also, and price matching...

and also, not sure if you read any of gregs messages about him and music... just thought i would throw that out there since your name is musicman....


damn, im tired...

stop writing .... go to bed....   sleeeeeepppppp

[Just_Greg]

90 lbs of LR sounds like a lot of rock to me for a 56 gal tank.  you WILL want some fish in there too.   ;)

to be honest, i never know how much rock i put in my systems...i do the 'scaping until i'm happy, and however much rock that is, is how that particular setup rolls.

400W of heater sounds like a lot as well (that's about 7W/gal), i'd say one of those would be plenty.  maybe you can return one and save some bux there.  i used to use the EBO-Jager heaters (swore by them), but since they became Eheim-Jager, i haven't been quite as happy with them (i still have a few, but since i live in the land of sunshine, i rarely use heaters at all).

as for canisters, i ran an Eheim 2215 for many years on my first FO as well as using it for a few other things after i started using sumps.  i'm with Bill here.  i think canisters is a bit much to start off with.  i'd get into the upkeep thing, and see how you like them before getting a second one.  canisters work well, but as Bill mentioned, do require maintenance to keep your system "happy" (i think the best thing is to toss the sponges and use floss...that way you simply change it out. that being said, Eheims are about the best, IMHO (my old 2215 still works!).

 

[music4everman]

Hey Greg, Bill, Hajra, Randy and everyone else who've viewed my post and replied to it.
Thanks for the warm welcome and for following my progress and all the input you've all given me. It's definitely less intimidating going forward with my intentions of setting up a (hopefully functional) marine tank. I'm sure I'll hit some bumps along the way but at least I feel I stand a better chance of correcting those bumps with members like all of you that tell about your own experiences and what I should be aware of. I kind of went with more than what I probably need as far as the filters and heaters. I guess reading some of the accidents some hobbyist have had with their heaters failing and the consequences attributed to those failures. I figure if I have two heaters they wont have to work as hard when necessary. I live in New York and the winters can be extremely cold. Because of fuel cost we don't run the boiler as much when no one is home. Also since my tank is in the bedroom, in the summer we use an air conditioner that can bring the temp. of the room way down. So the heaters on going to be very important. As far as the 2 canister filters, I wanted a wet/dry with a sump but I couldn't find one small enough to have in the cabinet. The space under (cabinet) and around the tank is very limited. So size played a big factor in what I could have. The canister filters seemed to be the logical choice. 1 because they are a lot more compact and would fit in the cabinet and 2 they're supposedly much quieter than there W/D with sump counterparts. The Eheim 2229 is a WET/DRY, so I got it for my biological needs. The Eheim pro 3e is supposed to be a good mechanical filter, so I bought it for that. I'm hoping they complement each other. If one fails in one area maybe the other one will compensate for it. Since I also want to put live rock to help with the biological, if and when it gets established, maybe I'll be able to remove one of the filters in the future. Greg mentioned that he would use floss instead of the sponges. Can someone explain the benefit of using one over the other ? Well, that's it for now, I hope you all stick with me through the process . It's greatly appreciated.
PS... Some of the abbreviations are confusing to me. I haven't a clue of what they stand for. bye

[Bergy]

let us know which abbreviations you dont understand..

As for the dual heater, yes, that is a good way to create redundancy and back up and all that by having two heaters... i guess greg was saying that maybe he would have gotten two smaller heaters as each one of your heaters is probably enough all by itself, or maybe even too much...???


Not sure what size requirements you ahve or dont have, but if you can fit two cannisters under your tank then youcan fit a small sump/refugium underthere also.. or rather...

but again, the filter choice is a 'concept' choice... some folks like cannisters, some hate them...

the floss issue that greg mentioned is due to the 'mechanical' nature of foam pads as filters is just to catch particulate, and that foam pads are expensive, and should be thrown away often, they can become an expensive maintenance item..

you can buy floss from walmart or fabric shops for really cheap...

you just use floss instead of foam pads that are made or designed for the cannisters, and then just toss the floss instead of tossing $10 foam pads every month

[Just_Greg]

you just use floss instead of foam pads that are made or designed for the cannisters, and then just toss the floss instead of tossing $10 foam pads every month

precisely, in fact, one would be more likely to replace the floss more often since it's cheap.  a canister is a great place for any chemical filtration you might want to use, such as carbon, chemi-pure (i really like chemi-pure), purigen, etc.

As for the dual heater, yes, that is a good way to create redundancy and back up and all that by having two heaters... i guess greg was saying that maybe he would have gotten two smaller heaters as each one of your heaters is probably enough all by itself, or maybe even too much...Huh?

yeppers...altho a smaller heater won't have to work as hard, too large of a heater also has a greater possibility of cooking the tank if it sticks "ON".  this would be where Bill's tank controller could be of use, as the controller will control the heater rather than its internal t'stat. 

being lucky enuff to live in a moderate climate, the only tanx i heat are the ones that are chilled, and the chillers have a dual-stage temp controller that controls both the chiller and the heater.  the reason i heat these tank is two-fold:  the heater and chiller work together to keep the temp very stable, and in case a chiller should stick "ON", it gives me a cushion before the fish turn into popsicles.

[pinkorchid]

I've been following this thread without much to add. Still trying to learn things myslef...
Wanted to say best of luck with your set up. Sounds like things are moving in the right direction.

Since on topic I have a question about floss. I'm running an aquaclear 500, w/ foam filter pad and carbon. Could I swap the foam for floss? Thinking I'd save a bundle ($$)....not sure if it would work the same in my set up as in a cannister (which I'm not firmilar with).

Sorry for hijacking...  ;D

[Just_Greg]

yeppers, it will work...i do it in HOB's all the time.

[cruzincaril]

im not understanding this floss thing..does it take the place of foam? or rather i have polyfilters in my HOB...