Lighting

[Joy]

It's me again.  I have my tank up and running, the sump is working fine and pump is nice and quiet.  I put my sand on the bottom and have placed some old coral rock I had laying around the yard in as well.  I am ready to build my canopy but I need some help with the lighting.  I have searched across the web and back about the different types of lighting.  I have decided that I want to go with compact fluorescent bulbs with the blue LED lights for night time.  Can anyone recommend how much light I need for my tank?  It is 75 gallons, 4 ft long, 23 inches deep.  I want to do the easier soft corals, a few fish, mushrooms, etc.  I really don't want to use the metal halide due to cost of both the bulb and energy use.  Any other suggestions will be well received.  Thanks again for all your support!!!

Joy

[Just_Greg]

if you want to run PC's, go with a 220W/260W fixture (it will be 4 x 55/65W lamps).  get a fixture that has separate cords for each half, as this allows you to run a dawn/dusk cycle.

for your lamp options, run (2) 10k K lamps on one half, and (2) 03 actinic lamps on the other.

i ran a very successful 55 gal mixed softy/LPS reef on that lighting for years, and i still use that fixture 12 years later.

[Bergy]

Hey Joy, welcome back

Quick question on the corals/rocks you got from your front yard...

Did you clean the living crap out of them???  and not sure that will be enuf...  if there is any weed or bug spray on the yard and or on the rocks, then you really cant use them anymore...  it would be hard/ somewhat impossible to get any of those types of contaminants off/out of the rock

as for lighting, i cant stress enuf to not go with PC lighting...

that isnt yesterdays technology, it is yesterdays' yesterdays technology...  if cost is what is driving you towards PC then please try to understand that you prolly wont gain any money/savings over t5 lighting...   That plus t5 will give you more options for lighting bulbs/color.

And regardless whether you go with pc or t5, gotta go with the highest wattage possible...  as greg mentioned, watts, and wanting a specific 'wattage'... i feel it more important/relevent if you look at each bulb's wattage

his 220/260 watts that is for all the bulbs combined...

My suggestion is to look at each bulb and get teh highest wattage per bulb, and then figure out how many watts/bulbs you want...

htey make t5 is different wattages, but i suggest going with t5HO, (High output) of no less then 39 watts, and preferrably 54 watts per bulb/each    you can check out www.hellolights.com to see a good selection of fixtures and wattages..

If you are going with a canopy, then you can get what is called  RETRO kit... basically it is the fixture without the hgousing.. the canopy is the housing.. you attach teh reflectors and the bulbs to the inside of the canopy and it's done...

Dont let the wireing drive you away.. basically, it is just two wires per bulb... of in your case with multiple bulbs, it is two wires in to each bulb then two wires out for each bulb, (to go to the next bulb)

this will reduce teh cost by about 50% or so...

Anyways, please send up links or pics to the fixtures or whatever you have seen so far so we can get an idea of what you are interested in...

bill

[Joy]

Hi Bill,

The T5 sounds good, I wasn't sure which was better the compact or T5.  My brother is building me a canopy for my tank and he is going to install the lighting also.  Do you think that 2 10K and 2 Actinic will be good?  Greg suggested the 2 10K on one side and the 2 Actinic on the other with 2 cords to run dusk to dawn lighting.  I also want to install LED's for night viewing.  Any other suggestions?????  As always your expertise is so appreciated!!!

Joy

BTW, the rocks were on my lanai and yes I scrubbed them well and soaked them in bleach water for about a week.  Then I tossed them in the pool for about another week. 

[Just_Greg]

the LED's are great for night viewing, and i recommend them (get blue LED's).  you may be able to find a retrofit fixture that includes the "moonlights".  if you set the lighting up the way i suggested, you literally get 3 different aquariums, as each lighting brings out different critters and colors.

the reason i gave the 220W/260W rating is because 55W and 65W PC tubes are the same...it simply depends on what the ballast is driving them at.

as Bill sez, we're here to help.  i know lighting can be one of the most confusing parts of a tank, given there are so many options.

[Bergy]

yea joy, greg has it down for the lighting...

there are many 'actinics' and other blue/purple/pink bulbs out there, and not to confuse you, I suggest sticking with what you got...

as you can get to see other aquariums you need to put on the TO ASK LIST... what kind of lighting and color bulbs...

if you find some color you like then you need to try to emulate that as much as possible, knowing that it is impossible to actually replicate it, at least not at our level... im sure movie industry and other scientifc purposes can,  but for our best intent,  knwing the name of ht bulb and the color and the ballast, will give you the best bet.,...


btw.. this is a fanatical topic of discussion...   and there can be numerous threads about the 'best' combination'  suffice it to say that most folks who buy coral online wont do it unless they know the type of lighitng so that they know what color the to expect the coral to be under thier lighting..

I have read a bunch of threads about getting corals that didnt look like they did in the picture...


and gtting ripped off...


arrrggghhh... it seemss silly, b utg when they spend the amount of money they do, then they get to it just like wine afficiandados would...

[Bergy]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1822636


for example


this guy has 16 bulbs...   and check out the 'names' of the bulbs

[99trev]

Has anyone looked into the LED lighting systems beyond just the "moon/blue" lighting?  I have seen some articles popping up on them, and the claims is that they are just as good as T5, use less electricity, and will not "heat" the water. But a quick look they are very expensive, but the offset to that is they are estimated to last 11 years before needing replacing.

I want to do a little more research on them, but thought I would check with the experts here also.

[Bergy]

1. leds arent tried / proven yet..  the big issues are that corals and critters might need a large variety of thelight spectrum... (white light from the sun i smade up of a lot of different colors, i.e. the raibow /prism affect)  LEDs only create a single spectrum/color   so you might need a bunchj of different leds/colors to provide a little bit of each color

2.  'efficiency' --- yes leds are more efficient.. but what is efficient???  are you talking about electrical savings, or lumens per amp or lumens per watt???      and not to get too technical   over all you will save about 25% electricity.... and get about the same about of 'intensity'  (I think that is PAR)

3 Heat   leds create heat... they need a bunch of cooling, either with a good sized heatsink or with fans or both...  Heat is a waste/lack of efficiency for both / all types of lighting... but, other types of lighting also create RADIANT heat...  that is what will affect the tank water temperature.. .LEDS dont create, or if they do it is minimial.  so you are correct.. leds are better for tank temperature issues...

You will save money if you needed a chiller before to offset the RADIANT heat generated by otehr types of lighting

4.  Replacement issues are not easy to compare, as you said LEDs do last longer, but that is under optimum conditions.,.. LEDs fail often in real life.. and nmost led fixtures have leds installed in strips so if one led fails and you want to fix it you have to remove/replace the entire strip..... this make  you have to consider the cost of the strip vs the lack of lght you have if just one led is burnt out...

5.  LED technology is chan ging every six months...    Most led fixtures you canb find are eitehr a bunch of 1 watt leds,  or a few series of 3 watt LEDs...    so, you either have a hundred 1 watters or 30 w watters.... 

And actually 5 watt and 10 watt LEDs are now being produced... but I doubt we will see them in the fixtures for at least 5+ years

If you think buying a fixutres now believing the leds will last ten years, and knowing that in 2 years the leds are outdated and prolly inadequate and or 'way' inefficient...

Anyways.. there are a ton of discussions about these led   and you can do a ton of research but i believe that the cost is way out of hand for us to even think obout being a guieni pig...

[RandyFolds]

A lot of fixtures now have 30w white LEDs placed with supplemental reds, blues and purples in 1,3 or 5w.

Another thing that they don't factor in for bulb life is the operating temperature. An LED at optimum temp might last ten years, but one that is operating 10 degrees hot might only last one year. This goes for all bulb types, NO, HO VHO, MH. The hotter they run, the shorter their lifespan.

Because the fixtures are packed with these heat generating diodes, they are in effect choking themselves off. You need to cool the fixture itself rather than the air around the fixture, and you probably can't do that to a point where the bulbs are operating truly efficiently.

[Just_Greg]

everyone is basically saying the same thing here...

the WATT isn't a unit of brightness (such as the Lumen or Candela), but rather is a unit of power dissipation.  the more power dissipated = more heat.

generally speaking, WATTS = Volts x Current (Amps), however, Ohm's Law also states that WATTS = Current squared x Resistance.  this I2R heating is the stumbling block, and is a major cause of device failure. 

a biased semiconductor junction will heat said semiconductor (in this case, the LED) to a given junction temperature based on the amount of current passing thru it and the intrinsic resistance of the device itself.  this heat must be dissipated, or drawn away from the chip or the junction will overheat and fail.  so, we use a heat sink to dissipate the heat, but we're not finished yet...we still need to draw the heat away from the heat sink so it will continue to cool the semiconductor.  the normal way to do this is to allow the heat to radiate away from the heat sink and into the air, which means the air over your tank is now heated, and with it, the water.

the high power LED's get pretty darned hot, and the devices rated >3W do have longevity issues, and don't even come close to the 50,000 hr lifetime of a 500 mW LED (at one time, the 5W LED's used in flashlights had a lifetime of about 10 hrs).

LED's are nice, but i'm still not convinced that they're everything peeps say they are, and for the current high costs, i'll stick with T-5's or MH and have some money left over.

just the opinion of a semiconductor failure analyst...

[Bergy]

everyone is basically saying the same thing here...

the WATT isn't a unit of brightness (such as the Lumen or Candela), but rather is a unit of power dissipation.  the more power dissipated = more heat.
...
just the opinion of a semiconductor failure analyst...

It is your last statement that makes me not want to reply...  but i gotta


Watts are NOT the amount of energy DISAPPATED

it is the amount of energy used... the more efficient the device the more energy used to create the desired goal/thing, in this case light


if there were no heat generated and all the electricy went to producing light/actually PHOTONS, then it would be 100% efficient..

an LED produced more photons per watt, then an incandesescent or flourescent light, but it isnt anything spectacular or anything to write home about..

is it a step in teh right directtion , hell ya, but again, heat generated is teh not only a waste/efficiency issue, it is a longevity issue...

[Just_Greg]

energy used = power dissipated.  trust me, i deal with PD in Watts on a daily basis.

[Bergy]

damn it... i was almost finished typing the reply and wham something happened and i have to reype it..


anyways,,, per   http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dissipated

And my common use of the word 'DISSIPATE'   it is usually a negative thing... power that is disspated is something that didnt go towards the intended goal


The definition for those that didnt follow the link is as follows:

–verb (used with object)
1.to scatter in various directions; disperse; dispel.
2.to spend or use wastefully or extravagantly; squander; deplete: to dissipate one's talents; to dissipate a fortune on high living.
–verb (used without object)
3.to become scattered or dispersed; be dispelled; disintegrate: The sun shone and the mist dissipated.
4.to indulge in extravagant, intemperate, or dissolute pleasure.


You are using the term per a technical or TRADE definition which is not common usage bnor is 'intuitive' but again, i do trustr you...

energy used = power dissipated.  trust me, i deal with PD in Watts on a daily basis.

[Joy]

Wow, thanks for all that . . . information.  LOL!!!!!!  You all are so funny!!  But really, I appreciate all the input.  I went to Hellolights like Greg suggested.  Since I am designing my own canopy and can basically put any kind of light system I want, I was going to take Greg's advice and go with the T5's.  I found a nice reflector wide enough to hold the 4 bulbs.  They said they could rivet end caps on it for free for "that professional look".  When I emailed them to make sure they were T5's they said they didn't attach T5's that they had separate individual reflectors for T5.  Is there some reason I can't mount my T5 end caps on a single wide reflector?  Is there something to do with the reflection or heat?  It just seems funny to me that you can mount 4 other types of bulbs but not the T5. 

Thanks for all your input everyone!!!!!

Joy